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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0002574ardourfeaturespublic2009-02-26 16:352018-07-03 13:17
Reporterognam 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityfeatureReproducibilityalways
StatusfeedbackResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version2.7.1 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0002574: Source/Destination Editing
DescriptionHello! I think if Ardour would be able to work in a 4-point sounce/destination mode (like Sequoia or Pyramix) it would be the main tool of many many classical recording ergeneers... It is already a very great sequencer and I really like the Fade-Editor, but a possibility to handle a Project with many takes of a classical recording is still missing. Is it possible to implement a View with one of the recorded tracks on the top that represents all tracks of my recording and an empty destination track on the bottom, where I can make a final cut in multitrack-mode? I´m no programmer but the theory of this is very simple... --> If I make something with one track, Do it for all the others (like a group in which every Track has its own fixed destination), and the Same for a new group of empty tracks. Then add some shortcuts for in- and out-points, put it in a nice View and Sequoia will be burned out ;-) I think this would be a great Goal for Ardour...

What Do you Think about this?

Cheers Jonas
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-  Notes
(0005778)
agorka (reporter)
2009-02-27 06:04
edited on: 2009-02-27 06:07

Editing multitrack classical recording is an open question for me also... In cubase you can create track folders and move multiple channel clips between foldered tracks. Clips are represented by a rectangle on a folder track, but they contain no wave display, so they have to be unfolded to see what you are editing. Also you can't make crossfades between folded tracks. This approach is better than nothing, but still far from the ideal.
I was thinking how it can be represented from user side to make it comfortable to use. I am thinking about some kind of hierarchical architecture of editing. One layer of hierarchy is already can be seen in cubase - you can group clips to a 'Part' and then you can use this part like a clip, moving and copying it, and you can 'dive' inside of it and edit clips inside. Those parts can contain lanes, but there is actually only one track in the part. They are very useful for editing single-track recordings, such as vocal, cause you can have multiple takes of vocals in this part, you can mute and edit them as you wish and then you can copy it over the whole song just like a single clip.
I really miss this feature in Ardour. But my idea is to extend this approach to multi-track parts. I have no clear imagination of how it should be done, but I think that this will make editing multitrack recording (such as drums, choirs and all other classical performances) very easy and comfortable. For example, if you group a multitrack clip to a multitrack part, it will be placed on a multitrack track. Then you can edit such multitrack parts like simple clips, crossfade them and so on. But if you need to edit tracks separately, they open in separate window, and you can cut some noice from single track or shift some drum hit on a single track.
Then, you can group multitrack parts or several takes to one part, open this part, and place those parts to different lanes one under other. Now you can slice them, mute slices and make crossfades between slices as if they were just simple sound clips, while they are multitrack parts.
And after you've done, you can close all deeper levels and see just a rectangle of multi-take multi-track clip. You can make linked copies of it, so if you change one, others will change also, and so on. If you double click on it, you'll dive one level down, to takes lanes. If you double click again on a single clip on those lanes, you'll dive second level down, to multi-track representation of this clip.

That's my view of ideal DAW for classical recordings.

Another approach to this problem is track folders like in cubase. This may be more clear and simple approach than the first one, but still useful. Imagine you create a folder that contains several tracks. You record few takes on those tracks. Then you fold the folder track and all the tracks inside are now represented as a single track with some waveform (maybe sum of the tracks waveforms, maybe maximum waveform, that doesn't really matter). Then idea is to create take lanes on this track. So you'll have several takes stacked vertically. If you need to compare the takes, you don't have to search for the needed take in the timeline, you just mute all other takes above and under the needed take and you listen to the needed one. If you need to edit tracks separately, you unfold the folder track.
So, in folded state, folder track might look like this:
Folder track: Drums | Lane1: [Multitrack Take 1]
................... | Lane2: [Multitrack Take 2]
................... | Lane3: [Multitrack Take 3]
In unfolded state, folder track might look like this:
Folder track: Drums
...Track 1......... | Lane1: [Track 1 Take 1]
................... | Lane2: [Track 1 Take 2]
................... | Lane3: [Track 1 Take 3]
...Track 2......... | Lane1: [Track 2 Take 1]
................... | Lane2: [Track 2 Take 2]
................... | Lane3: [Track 2 Take 3]
...Track 3......... | Lane1: [Track 3 Take 1]
................... | Lane2: [Track 3 Take 2]
................... | Lane3: [Track 3 Take 3]

That's it. I hope it is understandable despite my english.

(0005793)
ognam (reporter)
2009-03-05 22:46

If something like this would be possible, Ardour would be the only Application with a multitrack cut option that works on OSX...
(0005805)
paul (administrator)
2009-03-12 14:02

1) Ardour already has multitrack cut options. Put the tracks into an edit group. Make the group active. When relevant, edit operations will apply across the group. Note point 4 below.

2) grouping regions into composite regions will show up in 3.0, but i am not sure when.

3) ardour 3.0 can already do vertical region stacking for overdubs

4) take management is a fairly complex task (especially to get it right), and will likely not be done before 3.0 is released. it will almost certainly never be part of 2.x.

5) so-called 4-point editing is a wierd hangover from people who are too used to a tape metaphor. i have never met anyone or read anything that explains why it is useful in a modern DAW. please feel free to change my mind.
(0005823)
ognam (reporter)
2009-03-16 03:45
edited on: 2009-03-16 03:46

4-Point editing has the following advantages:

1) In classical music there is often a very variable tempo. So if I want to change Bar 11 - 23 in take 1 to bar 11 - 23 in take 2, these two phrases normally won´t have exactly the same length. By setting up the in- and out points, this doesn´t matter. I just put the in-point at bar 11 and the out-point at bar 23 at the source-group and at the destination-group as well, and it will fit ferfectly. In fact, when the phrase from take 2 is longer, the DAW will just move everything in the destination-tracks that is behind the out-point to the right, so that the phrase from take 2 fits to the space in take 1. Without 4-point cut mode, I always would have to do this by hand. I would have to zoom out, select everything behind my cut, zoom in again and move the selected regions to the right place, which takes often more than one try.

2) It is possible to edit one cut by moving the in- and outpoints as a fine tunig in the fade editor without affecting the other cuts. Doing this by hand it is really inefficient (zoom out, select everything behind the cut, zoom in, move, ..., the same for each try because you often have to hear if the cut is good and than try again).

3) In the 4-point mode, I have in fact two arrange-windows. One that shows the Source tracks with all my recorded takes, and one with my destination tracks where I make my cut. Now, when I zoom in that I see only one of the tracks in each arrange-window, this is clearly laid out. Without 4-point-wiew I can also zoom in to see only one track, but if i have recorded for example 12 tracks, I would have to scroll down all the 12 source-tracks to see the first track of my destination tracks. So to move a group of regions from the source to the destination, I allways have to zoom out.

Believe me, 4-Point editing is not only for old men who are used to work with analog tape machines. It is still the only way to handle hundreds of takes and cuts (as it is normal in classical recording) in an efficient way.
And there is definitely no DAW for Mac OSX which can do this...
Think about it!

Thanks and good luck...

Jonas

(0005824)
agorka (reporter)
2009-03-16 09:10

I have never worked in 4-point-editing DAW. I just can imagine, that 4-point editing in the way you described won't fully solve the problem. After cutting pieces I always have to finetune edits to match the phase of the sound so several movements of regions are required after editing. Right now I also have to zoom out to select all audio after the editing point. But there are few solutions: in Cubase you can use shift-double click to select region under the mouse pointer and all the regions that go after it, so you can move all the data after editing point. Another feature I saw in wavelab is a toggle-button. When this button is on, all movements of the region affects all the regions after it. Right now I have the following workflow in cubase:
I have folder tracks for all takes (say, 15 folder tracks, each of them include, say, 8 audio tracks). I put similar takes one under other so if I need to find alternative take, I look above or below current folder track. I audition them by Solo button on a folder track. Then when I chose the needed take, I copy it to another folder track roughly in the place it should be. When all takes are chosen and I have full resulting folder track, I fold all the others and start working on crossfades. This is rather optimal way for me, except that I can't have all folder tracks folded because cubase doesn't show any wave of folded track, so I have too many waves on the screen. Second problem is selecting regions up to the end of the project. Usually I have to zoom out. I'm lucky that I have only 8 tracks and no automation, I can't imagine editing opera recording this way. Luckily I only had to mix live-recorded opera performances so there were no takes. So I can't say for 4-point editing, but tracks folding and moving regions (including automation) 'up to the end' would really help me and maybe make me switch from cubase to Ardour in such a tasks.
(0007370)
magnetophon (reporter)
2010-02-11 16:58

The multi-level editing that ognam describes in his first note is exactly what I have been dreaming of as well!!!!! It would be just as useful for editing pop.

Also, I think 4 point editing would solve a lot of problems for anybody who records without a click track.
(0018220)
fabiii9 (reporter)
2016-05-24 04:43

In my opinion, source/destination cut is the important function for a DAW (use for classical recordings). Also a advanced crossfadeeditor, like (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yFOgvAxzGUg/maxresdefault.jpg [^]) is a very important function.
I worked with Sequoia of Magix. And is so easy to edit classical recordings. But Sequoia is very very expensive for hobby-users. Maybe it is possible to insert this function in ardour. Maybe I will unterstand the code, then I will implem,ent this feature.
(0020320)
fabiii9 (reporter)
2018-07-03 12:52

How many should I pay? I really want this function, so I will pay for it
(0020321)
paul (administrator)
2018-07-03 13:17

It is generally not possible for single individuals to pay for the development of significant functionality.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2009-02-26 16:35 ognam New Issue
2009-02-27 06:04 agorka Note Added: 0005778
2009-02-27 06:04 agorka Note Edited: 0005778
2009-02-27 06:07 agorka Note Edited: 0005778
2009-03-05 22:46 ognam Note Added: 0005793
2009-03-12 14:02 paul Note Added: 0005805
2009-03-16 03:45 ognam Note Added: 0005823
2009-03-16 03:46 ognam Note Edited: 0005823
2009-03-16 09:10 agorka Note Added: 0005824
2010-02-11 16:58 magnetophon Note Added: 0007370
2016-05-24 04:43 fabiii9 Note Added: 0018220
2016-05-24 04:44 fabiii9 Sponsorship Added fabiii9: US$ 10
2016-05-24 04:44 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 0 => 10
2016-05-24 04:52 fabiii9 Sponsorship Updated fabiii9: US$ 30
2016-05-24 04:52 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 10 => 30
2016-05-24 04:52 fabiii9 Sponsorship Updated fabiii9: US$ 20
2016-05-24 04:52 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 30 => 20
2016-05-24 04:53 fabiii9 Sponsorship Updated fabiii9: US$ 50
2016-05-24 04:53 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 20 => 50
2017-05-21 08:58 fabiii9 Sponsorship Updated fabiii9: US$ 10
2017-05-21 08:58 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 50 => 10
2017-05-21 08:58 fabiii9 Sponsorship Updated fabiii9: US$ 50
2017-05-21 08:58 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 10 => 50
2018-07-03 12:49 fabiii9 Sponsorship Updated fabiii9: US$ 5
2018-07-03 12:49 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 50 => 5
2018-07-03 12:49 fabiii9 Sponsorship Updated fabiii9: US$ 100
2018-07-03 12:49 fabiii9 Sponsorship Total 5 => 100
2018-07-03 12:52 fabiii9 Note Added: 0020320
2018-07-03 12:52 fabiii9 Status new => feedback
2018-07-03 13:17 paul Note Added: 0020321


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