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IDProjectCategoryView StatusLast Update
0000080ardourfeaturespublic2011-12-12 00:20
Reporternbd Assigned To 
Status feedbackResolutionopen 
Target Version2.8 
Summary0000080: Add meter marker dialog suggests (and accepts) also beats other than 1
DescriptionMarks can be put only to first beat.
TagsNo tags attached.


related to 0004200 closedpaul tempo change on non first beat problems 



2003-10-24 01:59

administrator   ~0000073

can you expand on this bug report? i don't quite understand it.


2003-10-24 02:00

administrator   ~0000074

Reminder sent to nbd

check the new bugnote. thanks.


2003-10-24 09:58

reporter   ~0000078

Try adding meter marker to eg. bar 4 beat 2. It will appear on bar 5 beat 1.
Also if you try to drag meter marker it will only drop to beat 1. So the only place for the meter marker is beat 1 of any bar. That's correct behaviour. *But* the dialog let's you input some beat number. I think the beat number input widget could be dropped.

Sorry, the original input wasn't clear enough. It was about 3am here in Finland.



2003-10-24 17:44

administrator   ~0000083

actually, the idea was to allow you to put a new marker in the middle of an existing bar. e.g you're in 4/4. you put a new marker at 4/3. it becomes 5/1 necessarily. before it are just 4|1 and 4|2.

bartok did stuff like this, btw.

let me know what you think.


2003-10-24 17:44

administrator   ~0000084

Reminder sent to nbd

new bugnote.


2003-10-24 21:34

reporter   ~0000088

But the problem is that currently if I try to do this, the 4/4 bar stays 4/4 bar and the marker goes to 5|1. So I just can't make 4|1 4|2 5|1.

I would love it if I could set the marker to arbitrary beats, but I just can't achieve this right now. Of course I could set the previous bar shorter with another marker and then set the new marker to the wanted point. That's reasonable since in notation the bars can't just end suddenly without'warning'. In notation, the 'warning' is new metric notation in the beginning of the bar.

Also, if I could make 4|1 4|2 5|1 and the 4|1 didn't have marker (uses previously defined marker, let's say it's the default 4/4), now if in the future ardour starts supporting midi tracks and exporting midi, then we have a problem. At least then it should be automated that the bar at insert point get's its own marker that shortens the bar the correct amount.

So to sum up this confusing explanation:

1. I can't set or move meter markers to beats 2-n. (CVS 12 hours ago)
2. If 1. is the desired behaviour, the dialog shouldn't give impression that it could set the markers anywhere.
3. If we want to insert markers to arbitrary beats, the previous bar should automatically get it's own marker to shorten the bar so that the inserted marker would be on beat 1.

Ascii art explaining the 3.:

Before: ... 4|1 4|2 4|3 4|4 5|1 5|2 5|3 5|4 6|1 ...
Insert marker of 3/4 ^ here,

After: ... 4|1 4|2 5|1 5|2 5|3 6|1 6|2 6|3 7|1 ...
            ^(2/4) ^(3/4)

I strongly oppose to 3. It's very confusing for those who just try things out. The user will get confused why two markers appear when they inserted just one.

Sorry this is getting long, but I'm just trying to express my point clearly.

Btw, I noticed that meter dialog let's me to choose the meter denominator, but it has no effect on the bar length like it should. But I think that needs another bug report.


2008-02-19 06:53

developer   ~0004736

Is this still an issue? I would imagine this has changed a bit since 2003.


2008-02-19 21:56

reporter   ~0004739

Well, the new meter marker still goes to beat 1 even if I give some other beat in the meter dialog 'Meter Begins at', but I can drag it after inserting wherever I want and that is new feature and works fine.

So it's halfway fixed now.


2009-07-04 05:34

manager   ~0006243

Hmm trying to decide whether this should be marked as resolved or not, can the OP comment on the current status of it in 2.8.1(When that gets released shortly) or in SVN? Thanks.


2009-08-17 20:59

manager   ~0006571

i consider adding a meter marker anywhere but on the 1 of a beat a rather insane thing to do, which ardour should disallow for consistency.

if you add a meter marker on the last beat of a 4/4, you have effectively turned it into a 3/4. only that it doesn't have a marker saying so.

so all of a sudden, we have this wonderful notion of bars of a proper type defined by a preceding meter marker, and bars being something else entirely due to a following meter marker that some asinine user placed in the middle of a bar. ardour should punish such users.


2009-08-19 00:05

manager   ~0006573

to clarify, if you have a 4/4 piece, and you want a meter change on bar 10, beat 4, then bar 10 *has* to be a 3/4. so do what any sane engraver would do, mark it as such. classical music notation does not have the notion of a fractional bar of some meter, and it doesn't make sense. it's ugly, bug-prone and just totally wrong. people who need that want a meter change in the previous bar as well, and should be forced to say so. most i could live with is ardour auto-inserting an extra meter marker in the previous bar.


2011-12-12 00:20

reporter   ~0012385

Meter changes should only be allowed to be created at / be dragged to beat 1 of a bar. Doing a quick test this seems to work correctly in 2.0-ongoing but in current A3 (svn 10984) it is still possible to drag a meter marker to a non beat 1 position.

BTW bug 0004200 is about tempo markers wich should behave differently and hence is NOT related to this bug.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2003-10-23 23:29 nbd New Issue
2003-10-24 01:59 paul Note Added: 0000073
2003-10-24 02:00 paul Note Added: 0000074
2003-10-24 03:03 paul Status new => feedback
2003-10-24 09:58 nbd Note Added: 0000078
2003-10-24 17:44 paul Note Added: 0000083
2003-10-24 17:44 paul Note Added: 0000084
2003-10-24 21:34 nbd Note Added: 0000088
2008-02-19 06:53 v2 Note Added: 0004736
2008-02-19 21:56 nbd Note Added: 0004739
2009-07-04 05:34 seablade Note Added: 0006243
2009-07-04 05:34 seablade Target Version => 2.8
2009-08-17 20:59 nettings Note Added: 0006571
2009-08-19 00:05 nettings Note Added: 0006573
2011-07-19 15:47 paul Relationship added related to 0004200
2011-12-12 00:20 the_CLA Note Added: 0012385