View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | View Status | Date Submitted | Last Update |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0006040 | ardour | features | public | 2014-11-24 17:39 | 2026-04-08 14:15 |
| Reporter | florianb | Assigned To | |||
| Priority | normal | Severity | feature | Reproducibility | N/A |
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Summary | 0006040: MIDI mixer faders should be volume and not velocity multiplier | ||||
| Description | One basic Synthesizers/Samplers, strong velocity is equal to high volume. It is not the case on SoundBanks Samplers. These have multiple layers of samples so a strong velocity sounds totally different than a low one at matching volume. Since faders are very automation oriented, I think being velocity multipliers doesn't make sense. They should be volume CC. Because of that I simply never use these faders and have Volume CC on every track, which is not handy to manipulate. Since I use a control surface, it's such a pity! Now, the ideal scenario would be to have faders configurable, something like: MIDI faders are: - Velocity Multipliers - List of all CC ... This way, anyone could even use faders for pitch e.g. or whatever is the most useful for them. Individually for each fader would even be better! | ||||
| Tags | CC, fader, Midi, velocity | ||||
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Plenty of people would use faders for expression also. |
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In addition, velocity is applied when sending the "note on" event, and doesn't change for the duration of the note. Any changes are applied only to new notes. This means that it is not possible to do smooth mixing as would be expected when using a control surface. One way to demonstrate this is: record a midi track with very long notes. Using a midi surface control the mix. |
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I have also struck this problem - where the inbuilt MIDI fader only scales velocity which caused strange results when using a few external physical MIDI synths. It confused me for a while as I didn't appreciate what was happening initially. I also vote for the ability to set the inbuilt MIDI fader to other CC values. The best such feature for the MIDI fader to cover strange MIDI scenarios would be: * Set a custom MIDI channel * Set a custom MIDI CC or Note-on velocity * Allow grouping or use of same MIDI Channel & CC for multiple tracks. It would be valuable as I have an external Organ synth where volume is controlled by a combination of CC's on different MIDI channels depending on how the Organ is configured. * MIDI Channel 1 = Upper manual note-on/off and specific expression CC setting the upper manual swell. * MIDI Channel 2 = Lower manual note-on/off and specific expression CC setting the lower manual swell. * MIDI Channel 3 = Organ pedal note-on/off and specific expression CC setting the swell volume. * MIDI Channel 14 = Organ control channel where a combination of Volume CC, Expression CC, Common Swell CC, Crescendo CC & Registration CC define the overall Organ volume. This feature request is now 11years old - as Ardour 9+ seems to be receiving some MIDI love - I can always live in hope that MIDI niceties like this may be considered for inclusion by the developers. |
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Ardour only scales velocity when the synth is after the fader. At that point in the signal flow there is only MIDI data: MIDI Input -> Fader -> Synth -> .... If you place the Synth pre-fader (which is the default), audio volume is modified: MIDI Input > Synth -> Fader -> ... |
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Note you can already use a CC Fader in Ardour. As opposed to other DAWs Ardour handles CC like any other automation. But mapping it to the Fader is unlikely to happen. It's synth specific, and users may want different CCs for different channels (as Roger noted). The configuration dialog alone would be rather complex; and eventually it'll likely backfire when using that feature while (I moved the fader and nothing changes). |
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"likely backfire when using that feature while (I moved the fader and nothing changes).": This is actually the situation currently. If the synth is not a piano type synth then the inbuilt MIDI Fader just becomes an ON/OFF switch. The current behaviour is not obvious and there is no easy way to change this. * If the synth is a Piano type synth - the inbuilt MIDI volume Fader (scaling Note-On velocity) works as expected. The resulting sound changes volume with the Fader. * If the synth is an Organ type synth - as long as the inbuilt MIDI volume Fader is not "00". The resulting sound is the same volume as when the Fader is set at "001" or "127". This is not what one would expect for an inbuilt volume Fader. * If the synth is a complex multi-layer sampler like some SFZ instruments - the Note-On velocity doesn't change the volume of the instrument but either changes the timbre or note-attack. Being able to change the instrument timbre or note-attack is kinda useful - but is not what one would expect for an inbuilt volume Fader. "The configuration dialog alone would be rather complex": I personally disagree. The existing MIDI region "Insert Patch Change" dialog (with slight changes) could be a good template. Or something like what the Linux "SysEx Controls" application has for the KORG nanoKONTROL2 fader/encoder configuration is a simple and neat design. All that would be needed for such a dialog is something like: * Toggle: "Scale Note-On Velocity (Default)" or "Scale Custom CC" If "Scale Custom CC" is selected then: * "MIDI Channel#" Number entry. * "MIDI CC#": Number entry. * "Fader min value": Number entry. Default = 0. * "Fader max value": Number entry. Default = 127. With the logic of: If min > max - the Fader has positive throw (default). If max > min then Fader has reverse throw. Or alternatively - as a slighty less flexible compromise - be able to link an existing Automation to the Fader control in a manner similar to "MIDI Learn". Alt+Mouse Click and select existing Automation. "can already use a CC Fader in Ardour. As opposed to other DAWs Ardour handles CC like any other automation.": True if you know about the work-around; however, having the inbuilt MIDI Fader not behave like one would expect for many software/external Synths is an impediment to (new) users. Personally the inbuilt MIDI track volume Fader should behave like a volume Fader or be able to be configured as such. "mapping it to the Fader is unlikely to happen": That is unfortunate. |
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There is a typo above... I should have written: With the logic of: If Fader min < max - the Fader has positive throw (default). If Fader max < min then Fader has reverse throw. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2014-11-24 17:39 | florianb | New Issue | |
| 2014-11-24 17:43 | florianb | Note Added: 0016000 | |
| 2015-08-22 21:07 | jsollano | Note Added: 0017095 | |
| 2026-04-07 11:23 | Roger.Wilco | Note Added: 0030182 | |
| 2026-04-07 13:11 | x42 | Note Added: 0030183 | |
| 2026-04-07 13:20 | x42 | Note Added: 0030184 | |
| 2026-04-08 09:42 | Roger.Wilco | Note Added: 0030188 | |
| 2026-04-08 09:45 | Roger.Wilco | Note Added: 0030189 | |
| 2026-04-08 14:15 | Roger.Wilco | Tag Attached: Midi | |
| 2026-04-08 14:15 | Roger.Wilco | Tag Attached: velocity | |
| 2026-04-08 14:15 | Roger.Wilco | Tag Attached: fader | |
| 2026-04-08 14:15 | Roger.Wilco | Tag Attached: CC |
