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IDProjectCategoryView StatusLast Update
0005823ardourotherpublic2014-02-25 21:56
Reporteroofus Assigned To 
Status newResolutionopen 
Platformi7 3770K 3.5GHz,16GB MemoryOSKubuntuOS Version13.10 64bit
Summary0005823: Ongoing panner issues/requests
DescriptionA report to hold all ongoing issues and requests for all panner types
TagsNo tags attached.


related to 0005507 closedx42 External send resets pan 
related to 0004320 closed Panning in quadro is inadequate 



2014-01-13 13:20

developer   ~0015569

Last edited: 2014-01-13 13:21

** ISSUE **

The large panner window (edit from the menu or double click) Should be labelled the same as the track that it is from.


2014-01-13 13:50

administrator   ~0015570

Last edited: 2014-01-15 09:46

ISSUE -- fixed in 3.5-256-gabb75d4

Panner default-values need rework.

Invalid default values when panner-type changes.

Switching to balance -> 2in2out, retains position from balance but (previously set) width can be invalid. current workaround: "reset" 2in2out.

Similarly moving from 2 to 3 channels should retain the position relative to previous speaker setup (currently a 90deg shift is needed)

Shift-click reset on automation-sliders for elevation and azimuth does not correspond to "reset" for VBAP, either.


2014-01-13 14:10

administrator   ~0015572

VBAP Panner GUI - the 'Diffusion' spinbox should be replaced or removed

* allow to drag speakers to set diffusion (but what if diffusion == 0, no handle)
* replace it with a slider
* or replace it with a dial

Current issues with the spinbox (and why it should go):
 - numeric-entry is not supported in spinner -> global keyboard grab
 - spinner is integer only
 - rounding is not identical to automation-faders
 - it looks ugly

Maybe actually the complete VBAP GUI should be re-done. currently there's no negative elevation, either.


2014-01-13 14:27

reporter   ~0015573

Last edited: 2014-01-15 09:47

Issue -- fixed in 3.5-256-gabb75d4

If the stereo panner is edited and it's changed to equal power stereo, this causes the equal power stereo panners width to go outside of the box and be uneditable.


2014-01-15 11:36

reporter   ~0015576

Last edited: 2014-01-15 19:18

ISSUE - fixed in 3.5-262-g79b56b1 (PS. also affected stereo-panner width)

Strange behavior with vbap diffusion automation. Observations - You can use the slider on the automation track to go from -100% to 100% diffusion but when you draw in the automation, it only covers 0% to 100%. If you use write mode, it will show allow you to write automation from -100% to 0% but this automation goes out of the automation lane boundaries, which must be why it can't be drawn in. I am using the master branch so not sure if this is just an issue there or also with the cairo canvas branch.


2014-01-15 11:44

reporter   ~0015577

Last edited: 2014-02-19 23:59

ISSUE - fixed in git-5396459667

If a stereo plugin is added to a mono track, the panner changes to equal power stereo. Right clicking this doesn't give you the option to change to stereo balance, like normal stereo tracks do. If the session is restarted, then you can right click and change between the panner types on mono tracks with stereo plugins but this doesn't happen unless you restart the session.


2014-01-15 16:40

reporter   ~0015579

Last edited: 2014-01-15 16:55

ISSUE - Stereo width of aux bus sends is infinite if track panner is changed to stereo balance. Steps to reproduce -

Add a stereo track and bus
Add an aux send to the bus
Change panner type on track to stereo balance
Double click on send

The aux send panner will be set to equal power stereo. If you change the width of the panner, you can go past 100% and there appears to be no limit.


2014-01-15 17:38

administrator   ~0015581


regarding comment 0015579

This only relevant for linked-panners (right click on the send > send options > link with route; the default for new sends can be set in Edit > Preferences > Solo/Mute > Routing options).

There are various known similar edge-cases. When the panners are linked, the panner on the send is /slaved/ to the one on the route itself. It receives the same value but cannot influence nor constrain the range.

If the 'master' panner does not have a "width" control, "width" is unlimited for the 'slaved' panner.

This is a tough, non-trivial issue and likely a wont-fix for the foreseeable future.

An other variant (also with linked panners):
  Mono track 1 in, 1out. but a send to a stereo-track: The send's panner is not constrained.

A workaround would be to not allow panner-linking if the types are different..


2014-01-23 13:35

administrator   ~0015610

TODO: Disable panner on master-bus by default.


2014-01-23 13:37

administrator   ~0015611

Last edited: 2014-01-23 13:52

Use degrees (rather than percent) for stereo panner & VBAP

100% means: both channels are 180° away from the actual panning position.

Instantiate to 60° width, which translates to 100% stereo, and makes sense for vbap.


2014-01-23 13:53

administrator   ~0015612


race condition? When panners are linked:
remove aux send, recreate -> channel panner is reset.


2014-01-23 14:26

manager   ~0015614

Last edited: 2014-01-30 23:38

automation is broken (and has been for at least two years):
write, touch, and manual all work as expected, but on "play" the sound is muted altogether.

update: turns out the relevant function (distribute_one_automated()) is not implemented in vbap. "touch" only works on the first invocation, any subsequent run mutes the audio, too.


2014-01-30 23:43

manager   ~0015647

the width and position parameters for the 2in2out panner are mutually dependent and will influence each other's range of legal values.
that creates lots of hairy issues with hand-drawn automation, midi controllers and so on.
rgareus suggests to make width := percentage of legal range.
e.g. if position is all to one side, the image is mono even if width==100.
probably the sanest option. backwards compatibility of existing sessions??

/me thinks the 2in2out concept is broken anyways (will only work correctly for pan-potted stereo or XY, not for any spaced microphones, which are used by most sample libraries). should be a special case rather than the default. stereo balance is a safer default unless the user knows exactly what s/he is doing.

2014-01-31 00:12


2in2out_panner_value_spikes.jpg (248,615 bytes)   
2in2out_panner_value_spikes.jpg (248,615 bytes)   


2014-01-31 00:13

manager   ~0015648

added screenshot to demonstrate problems with value interdependence. the automation was created by moving the panner faders in the editor window with the mouse, one at a time (no concurrent editing).


2014-01-31 11:24

manager   ~0015649

here's a series of screenshots to demonstrate the comb filtering from reducing the width with the 2in2out panner:
(see README for explanation of the test setup)


2014-02-25 20:49

reporter   ~0015686

When i open new session, all stereo panners can be moved out of the box - signal can be amlified thousands of times (as long, as i can move the mouse left or right). When i switch type of the panner to stereo ballance and then back to equal power stereo, it works OK.
This issue is from 3.5.308 until now.


2014-02-25 21:22

administrator   ~0015687

re comment 15686: I cannot reproduce with 3.5.357.

open ardour, create new session, add 1 stereo track.
Panner behaves just fine (there was an issue earlier in 3.5.3XX)

possibly relevant settings: (here)

 * Preference > Solo/Mute > Link Panners is enabled (default)
 * Preference > Audio > Auto-connet enabled outputs to master
 * No monitoring section in session

Do you use any control surfaces? Midi bindings?
Do you still have this issue with the 3.5.357 release?


2014-02-25 21:56

reporter   ~0015688

You're right - in NEWLY created session, i don't have this issue. This is probably something strange in the concrete session definition. I thing, you can forget this issue.

Ardour - compiled yestarday from git.

Screenshot -

forget it, sorry.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2014-01-13 13:19 oofus New Issue
2014-01-13 13:20 oofus Note Added: 0015569
2014-01-13 13:21 oofus Note Edited: 0015569
2014-01-13 13:50 x42 Note Added: 0015570
2014-01-13 14:10 x42 Note Added: 0015572
2014-01-13 14:27 Leatuspenguin Note Added: 0015573
2014-01-15 09:46 x42 Note Edited: 0015570
2014-01-15 09:47 x42 Note Edited: 0015573
2014-01-15 11:36 Leatuspenguin Note Added: 0015576
2014-01-15 11:44 Leatuspenguin Note Added: 0015577
2014-01-15 16:20 Leatuspenguin Note Edited: 0015577
2014-01-15 16:40 Leatuspenguin Note Added: 0015579
2014-01-15 16:55 Leatuspenguin Note Edited: 0015579
2014-01-15 17:38 x42 Note Added: 0015581
2014-01-15 19:18 x42 Note Edited: 0015576
2014-01-23 13:35 x42 Note Added: 0015610
2014-01-23 13:37 x42 Note Added: 0015611
2014-01-23 13:52 x42 Note Edited: 0015611
2014-01-23 13:53 x42 Note Added: 0015612
2014-01-23 14:17 x42 Relationship added related to 0005507
2014-01-23 14:26 nettings Note Added: 0015614
2014-01-23 14:31 nettings Relationship added related to 0004320
2014-01-30 23:38 nettings Note Edited: 0015614
2014-01-30 23:43 nettings Note Added: 0015647
2014-01-31 00:12 nettings File Added: 2in2out_panner_value_spikes.jpg
2014-01-31 00:13 nettings Note Added: 0015648
2014-01-31 11:24 nettings Note Added: 0015649
2014-02-19 23:59 x42 Note Edited: 0015577
2014-02-25 20:49 pedro42 Note Added: 0015686
2014-02-25 21:22 x42 Note Added: 0015687
2014-02-25 21:56 pedro42 Note Added: 0015688